Partner, Foley Hoag
“I’ve always felt that the most meaningful mentor relationships are where both the mentee and the mentor can learn.“
What do you feel are the qualities for a mentor?
The most important quality is probably listening to your mentee and trying to understand where they’re coming from and what their concerns are and what it is that they’re looking to get out of the mentor relationship. Everyone’s got their own different journey. My journey is not going to be the same as someone else’s for a variety of reasons: because I’m of a different generation, or I’m a different gender, or race. But that doesn’t mean that those can’t cross, that you can’t cross those. If you’re listening, you understand what it is that they want, what they’re looking for in terms of their career. In terms of, what are they looking for out of this particular mentor relationship? What value is it that they’re hoping that I can give them versus another mentor? Because I think everyone needs lots of different mentors.
Whether it’s intellectual, whether it’s spiritual or social, do you feel it has to be mutually beneficial for it to actually work?
I don’t think it has to be mutually beneficial, but I think it’s most rewarding when it is. I have had circumstances where I’ve mentored people, and I always get something out of every interaction, for sure. But I’ve always felt that the most meaningful mentor relationships are where both the mentee and the mentor can learn.
Do you feel that the generation gaps and the generational shift that’s taking place within the workplace is challenging while bringing its own difficulties to the conversation? Because the generation today is very different. Not being a spring chicken myself, I kind of feel it.
Yeah. It does. One way to compare it is parenting, right? I’ve got two kids and they obviously approach the world a different way than I do. And they’re now adults so I think it’s some level—it’s a little bit of its own mentor-mentee relationship. But there’s always been different generations in the workplace. When I started, the Baby Boomers were really starting to run the show and call the shots. The generation before them was still in charge, but that was three generations in the workplace. There’s always going to be that clash of generations, and again, I think it’s about reaching a mutually respectful consensus.
I love the passion that the current generation really brings to their job, and it’s a wonderful thing. Working with younger people is just—there’s an energy and excitement that they bring. Because I’ve been asked to be a mentor for a number of people over the years they respect and appreciate the wisdom that comes with experience. But you have to reach a balance. No one is 100%. If you approach it with that, I think it works.
I think also with technology, everything is different today, which I know I didn’t have for sure.
Right. We certainly didn’t have 300 to 500 emails a day that you at least got to spend some brain space on. The overload of electronic communication can certainly be overwhelming at times. And you’re right, I think that’s something that’s going to not decrease, but increase.
The good news is that this generation is so much more used to it, and comfortable with it and tech savvy, that I’m hoping that they can figure out how to deal with it. For us, every year, it just becomes more and more…inundating. I’m hoping that they figure out, okay, we can use technology to leverage our work and figure out how to use technology that maybe manages technology.
When we’re trying to give Gen Z constructive criticism, it always feels like we’re judging them? Why is that not a method of mentoring or teaching them? The ‘I’ve been there, done it.’ What’s your take on that?
It’s hard. I mean, it’s always hard to hear criticism whether it’s constructive or otherwise. I mean, I try to think back to when I was a young associate, and sometimes I got criticism and I’d kind of walk away steamed and be like, that’s so wrong. They don’t know what they’re talking about. Then I think after the fact, as I look through the lens of 35 years of being a professional, that some of it was warranted. A lot of it made me a better lawyer, and a better professional and a better manager and all of those things. So, maybe I hope that it’s hard to hear it in the moment, but they go back and think, okay. The reason why I think that’s the case is because people can always vote with their feet. The people we hire are so incredibly talented, and have such wonderful opportunities in my mind—and most people stay.
What has been one of the best pieces of advice that you’ve been given?
From a professional standpoint, I would say it’s treat everything that goes out under your name as being reflective of you, and then I’ve kind of applied it to my personal life as well. But whenever you send a communication, whether it’s an email or, in my case, like a legal pleading or a letter or even just an oral communication, take a second and reflect and think and remember that whatever it is that you’re saying can never really be unsaid or undone. You can apologize after that. People get hot in the moment. But to really kind of remember that it all kind of reflects on you as a professional and as a person. And so, to think about that in terms of how you want to lead and present yourself to the world.
There are certainly people who don’t. Maybe that was an intentional way that they want to be, but I kind of try to think about that. I’ve written a lot of emails that I haven’t sent over the years.
The other great piece of advice I got is, for the most part, the things that I deal with in my day to day professional life—they’re not life and death situations. There are people who represent death row inmates. That’s absolutely a life and death, you know? But for the most part, 999 times out of a thousand, if not a thousand out of a thousand, the things that I deal with are not life and death situations. So it gives you a little bit of perspective and ability to say, okay, take a breath. Let’s kind of leg work this out.
What would you tell your 15 year old self today?
Enjoy every minute of it. Nothing’s going to be perfect in life. It’s going to throw you a lot of curveballs. You’re going to have to make a lot of decisions and…enjoy. Enjoy the ride as much as you can. Make a difference and care about the things you do. You only get one chance at this. Try to enjoy as much of it as you can while still doing the things that you think are important.
What do you feel was the defining moment in your life that led you to where you are today?
There was a point where I was deciding if I wanted to go to law school or did I want to stick in business [before I went to law school]. I thought long and hard about it. I just decided that it’s something that I’ve always thought I wanted to do, and I’m just going to take the plunge and spend the fortune that it spends and take on all the student debt and deal with it.
And it’s been great. I’ve loved my career, I’ve loved being a lawyer. I’ve loved being able to make a difference in my clients’ lives. I’ve loved being able to make a difference in kind of the legal world and in society at large. Through a lot of things that law gives you access to, and a lot of the people you meet and the skills you develop. Maybe it’s a trite answer, but it kind of is. It was a defining decision that I made and looking back on it I haven’t regretted it for a minute.
And that’s the key, not regretting your journey, right? Because if you do, that’s when you have to change it.
Which, by the way, people should remember that nothing’s set in stone. So what? I would have gotten to a point where I had a lot of student debt to pay off, and I would have dealt with it, and I would have done something else. Your path is not set in stone, you have to listen to the people you trust, whether it’s your parents or your mentors or your friends, whatever your group of advisors is—you know, if someone’s describing your board of advisors. Listen to them and listen to yourself and do what makes sense. Don’t do what you feel like you have to do.
Should higher education be prioritized over experience or is it a mix of both? What do you feel in your opinion?
Yeah, I think they’re both equally important. Look, I don’t think higher education is for everyone. I feel like at some points, some people probably go do it because they feel like they have to do it. We have a very close friend who had a number of children. Some went to very excellent schools, and one of them decided, no, I’m not going to do that. I want to do something else with my life and he’s incredibly successful with that. Even though he was smart enough to go do higher education, he chose to do something else. So it’s not for everyone.
What would you say is one of your unbreakable rules that you work by or live by?
Treat everyone with respect. Just treat everyone with respect. It doesn’t necessarily mean you have to be deferential to everyone, or anyone even. It doesn’t mean you need to be a pushover by any stretch of the imagination. In what I do, you can’t be. But I think if you treat everyone with respect, it makes everyone’s job easier and just makes the world a better place. You can agree to disagree and still treat someone with respect. You can disagree vehemently. You can even sometimes potentially get into a shouting match with someone and still be treating them with respect. I think it’s about not making personal attacks and not being ad hominem. Just again, treating everyone with respect.
What’s the most challenging thing you’ve ever had to overcome?
I would say it was when I got promoted to be the managing partner of the law firm. It’s a completely different skill set. I mean, I was really good at being a lawyer. I can go to court. I can argue, I can write legal briefs, I can do all those things. I could also lead teams so I kind of understood the leadership, leading case teams and mentoring people along the way. But being the leader of an 800-ish person organization or maybe less—700 with 350 lawyers and 350, business professionals—and figuring out how to manage. That was without a doubt the greatest challenge.
You have to amass the number of different skill sets you have to master, which are often in contention with each other. You need to make hard decisions. You also need to be empathetic, you need to have good financial discipline, but you also got to be willing to take risks. You got to be courageous. But you also have to think about the future and want to invest. You also have to think about the present and worry about the fact that you’ve got 700 families whose livelihood depends on your organization. It is such a balance of competing the issues that I’ve gotten newfound respect for people who lead these large organizations.
Harry Truman famously said, the buck stops here. And what he meant by that was, I’m the person who ultimately needs to make the decision, and that it stops here. I make it and that’s what you got to do as a manager, whatever organization you’re in.
So what’s your definition of a perfect day?
Definition of a perfect day would be…somewhere, some idyllic location with the sun shining, waking up with my wife, going out, walking on a long beach that takes you like four miles out and four miles back. You never see a cloud in the sky, and just being outdoors. Yeah.