Chief Purpose Officer, PwC
“I really have found that if you focus on values and the things that are important to people, people want to do well at work.“
What qualities makes for a Moves Mentor?
I think a Moves Mentor really focuses on being selfless, on really putting the individual first and to allow them a very open, safe space to convey the challenges or things that they’re facing. And you’re to be a very active listener, and to be vulnerable and to come with no judgment, but to help, to provide actions that someone can take to further decide what are the choices they should be making.
How can mentorship help bridge the gap between generations in the workplace? And what challenges arise from these differences?
I think the whole notion of generational differences in work environments is a really interesting issue, and I don’t think that in many cases the issue is as significant as people think. I really have found that if you focus on values and the things that are important to people, people want to do well at work. People want to spend time with family. People want to have time to do things that are important to them. People want to be able to talk about themselves and to share the things that they’re doing. Those are things that are constant across generations. I think we tend to focus many times on the things that are different, which I think causes bigger rifts of, well gosh, totally different.
Whether you are a Baby Boomer or you’re somebody who’s Gen Z, if you can talk about specifics of what’s important to people, that actually brings people together and we actually find that generation’s work very well together when they’re focused on those types of issues and really looking at those value-driven decisions.
I think what’s really important is that sometimes people forget that margins and lines that people draw in the sand are so similar for everybody. And I think it’s not until you talk about it, these things are brought to the table as a conversation.
Right. And I think a lot of it, too, is the issue about what can be talked about at work. I think that’s a bigger challenge of the generations when it comes to these things, because there’s many of us who went through the time that, God forbid, you wouldn’t talk about religion at work. You’re talking about football and you’re talking about—and suddenly that’s just not the case. It’s more of just not being comfortable yet with what does that. I’ve gone 30 years with being so focused on—you’re not allowed to talk about religion. And now we’re in an environment where people are like, no, you need us to help talk about it, because it is part of my identity and it is why I do my job a certain way and why I can’t do this on Friday. And suddenly we’re having to educate ourselves to issues we’ve never talked about before and I think that’s hard.
How does mentoring benefit the mentor, career-wise? Intellectually? Spiritually? Socially? What do you feel are the benefits that a mentor can get out of a mentorship?
I strongly believe that I have gained so much more being the person who’s mentoring, than the individual on the other side. I think being able to truly listen to different perspectives and to hear struggles and successes, and to hear it coming from different ages and backgrounds…I mean, I think it has opened up the aperture of how you think, and what you know, and what you haven’t ever challenged yourself on.
Just over the weekend, from a Mother’s Day perspective, I was thinking about how much more I have learned from my son than he has learned from me. I mean, the patience and to look at things in a way that is renewed and special and the questioning of things—“why do I think that?”—and asking yourself those things. I think that’s a part of a mentor, is truly being able to have the incredible benefit and luxury of talking to so many different people who just make you better, because now you’re so much more informed and open to taking all of those different thoughts…and then how do you apply them to your own life professionally and personally?
What is it that can encourage a mentor and a mentee to have a better relationship given all personalities are so different. What are some of the things that you do to motivate your mentees?
One of the things that I’ve started to do over the course of the years is to go through kind of the tenets of stoicism that I focus on every day to allow people to kind of take a step back, right? Because people don’t—they want to come with all of this worry and fear, instead of just saying for a second, like let’s go through and try to calm ourselves together, right? Let’s, let’s come at it at the same type of mental state, and then let’s go into things that are challenging us, because I think you need to not worry for a moment in order to start communicating the things that you might be worrying about or the things that are in your head. You have to open the door to be able to have a conversation so that you can reflect on what the other person is saying.
And so really taking the time to ground yourself together mentally. Why are we here? What are we talking about? These things can’t actually hurt us. We’re letting them hurt us. So let’s start there. I think then there is an open door of no judgment, of no one’s saying that your reaction is right or wrong. Let’s just talk about what the problem is. I think that really helps to give people a chance to not feel that fear of sharing something.
In addition, I’ve become—and we were talking about being vulnerable—much better at sharing my failures with people, and when it hasn’t gone very well. Saying I got through it, so this is something that…this too shall pass. You will be able to make this decision. You’ll be able to get through this and you’re going to be better for it and try to share with people what those things look like. I think it takes a long time to finally be able to share things that you really struggled with.
Do you believe constructive criticism is a vital means of mentoring and teaching? How do you relay that?
A couple things. We hire 7,000 new hires a year off of college campuses, so I see the influx of the new generations all the time getting in and I think that they get a very bad rap. I think they ask the questions that, frankly, we never ask, and they’re frustrated over things that we kind of just took another sip of the coffee and we just kept going on. I think that they’re very vocal about it which probably will help them in the long run; probably not having to stuff all their emotions in, but letting the things out. And so I think there’s some things that we can move, and really learn from that. I do believe that constructive feedback—I think criticism is a tough word—but I think constructive feedback is something that all generations take.
If, in fact, you give an actual example of what the challenge was that happened within the last week, or ten days, you can’t say six months ago this happened because no one’s going to remember the details. If you have very specific details around the feedback, why it was challenging in a timeframe where everyone does actually remember the details of it, so that you can talk about other alternatives to have actually done it differently. I think actually people are very open. I think we’re all afraid to give feedback and then God forbid, diversity comes in the mix and then we’re really afraid to give it. But when we do, we give it.
How has your mentoring style evolved, personally? How do you feel you’ve changed your style?
I think we touched on it a little earlier—my style of mentoring has really evolved. As you get more experiences and as you get more secure in yourself, I do think you start to share more of the things that don’t go right. I think a lot of people seek individuals out to be their mentor because they think they got it all together. They want to figure out how to get it all together. What does that look like? I think letting the individual know that none of us have got it all together and to be able to share those things lets people feel that they’re not failing at something, or that they don’t have to have all the answers now—that some of the answers need to unfold.
That’s part of life, which is a hard thing to hear about when you kind of want to just figure out what’s next, but I think that has changed in me. I think I’m much more comfortable in my own skin to share the things that have challenged me and things that have been detractors from my success personally or professionally. I’m now very open to sharing those things with others and to let them ask me anything. With the people I work with, there is nothing that I won’t answer. If we’re in a trusting relationship and you have a question about something, I’m going to share it with you and trust that you’re going to use that information appropriately. I think you have to gain your own confidence and your own self-worth in order to get to that place where I don’t have anything left to hold back.
How do you feel when you are mentoring, that you’re actually seeing the results? From looking at it on the earlier side and then looking at how it’s changed. How do you kind of figure out those results? What is your formula? How do you get some feedback?
For me, I look at it a couple different ways. One, did they come back? Because I’m very open to mentoring individuals who reach out, but I’m not going to stalk you down. If this is something that you want to do, then I’m open and I will always be available, but you need to direct that. So part of it is, you learn was this valuable or not? Did the individual come back? Are they looking for a cadence? Then, as they come back, did they take anything away from it? Can they include anything that was shared together in the last session to show that they’re actually taking parts of that connection to build on something? Or is it like you’re starting from scratch every single time.
And then I think, are you trying to get me to solve something? Or are we in this to realize that everything just doesn’t get solved in a half an hour? So we got to bring things back and then say, okay, so how did that help? And whatever types of things that you were going from and to really be able to see that they’re including the takeaways in the actions that are adding value and then okay, let’s look at what’s next.
I really listen to what people say, because I have had people who come back and I’m like, okay, if I’m just the person that you think is going to solve something, and there’s no reflection of, “Well, last time we talked about this and so this is how it helped me.” I don’t have a whole lot of time for that. But when folks really bring it back, then I know that they’re actually listening and they find value and they’re setting up time, I think that those things really reflect well on, “our relationship is working.”
One of the anchors from CNN spoke at one of our events—Stephanie Ruhle. The first thing she said is exactly what you said there. She said, what mentors and mentees forget, or particularly the mentees forget, is this is a two-way relationship. You want something from me? What are you giving me for me to give you what you want?
And I was like, my God, I’ve never, ever really thought about it like that. But it’s 100% true. Whether it’s the joy of life or whether it’s just the fun of us having a strong relationship, whether it’s you’re doing something that is going to be productive and result orientated, that allows me to feel nice, however selfish it is…what’s the exchange for me giving up my time for you?
And it doesn’t have to be someone who remembers that you really like sushi and says, oh my gosh, I heard that there was a great sushi restaurant in Chicago. I don’t know if you’ve gone there yet. We’re not talking about what needs to be this grandiose. It’s just saying, I heard you, I heard you. And I remember that. That’s important.
What is the best piece of advice you’ve ever been given?
My mother—be the heroine in your own story, not the victim. Because I think things happen and they’re hard, and life is hard and professional life is hard as well. I think it’s easy to say, this happened to me, and I’ve always really tried to think about, I’m going to rise above this. I’m not going to be the victim.
There’s always two handles. There’s the handle that you’re going to learn from this. There’s the handle that you were the victim in it. So not saying the situation isn’t bad. There might be no silver lining at all, but are you going to learn from it? Which means inherently that’s a positive.
What would you tell your 15 year old self? Would you tell your 15 year old self something different?
I would have told my 15-year-old self to have gone with what I wanted to do in my career: play-by-play football commentator from the time that I was 15. Huge sports person, grew up with all kinds of sports, but that’s what I wanted to do. And I knew as early as that, but I wasn’t as focused on what a 15-year-old was doing at the time, versus thinking about what actually translated based upon those things that I liked to do, and then how would I actually get there. So I would have done that. I would have said, all right, you know what? I actually want to do that. I wonder what that means now and into my future and how I would think about picking a college.
Who do you admire and why?
Two women that I’ve known for 30 some years. I really admire people who can be authentically themselves—in whatever that looks like—and are satisfied in being that way. To me, I’ve always struggled with feeling comfortable or I’m where I want to be and when I see that ease, I admire that so much. Whether it’s a sorority sister or an Adam Grant, he just is comfortable in his own skin, always loved Peggy Noonan and her speech writing because she was always trying to help the individual [she’s writing for]. There’s something that I’m so attracted to and so admire in that authenticity. It’s something that I think you can’t fake.
What was the defining moment in your life that led you to where you are today?
I don’t ever think that I would have ended up in Chicago, at PwC, if my mother hadn’t passed away. She passed away at 48, I was 23. I had thought that after graduating from Michigan, I would end up taking care of her and some ailments that she had back in Shaker Heights, Ohio. My dad was in Oklahoma at the time, and when she passed away, I was like, all right, so I’m either going to go to Oklahoma with my dad, stepmother, or I’m going to go to Chicago because everyone who graduates from Michigan goes to Chicago.
I think I came from a very matriarchal family, and they all passed away so early, and I don’t think I would have been the woman that I am, the mother that I am, the businesswoman that I am, if it wasn’t for my mother, my two grandmothers, and my aunt—all who passed away far too early. I carry them with me literally every day, who challenged me, and they should still be here. And someone has got to make sure that the world knows that they were here. I think if I can carry some of those actions, the world will be a better place.
Should higher education be prioritized over work experience, or a mix of both? What’s your opinion on that?
I come from a family of educators, so I think education is incredibly important. That being said, I think you have to really have an appreciation of what you’re trying to do and what is the outcome that you want. Because I do believe that depending upon that, work experience can be really valuable, and maybe that’s more valuable than another advanced degree.
And sometimes a community college and a focus specifically in one tangible area, is maybe a better option than a four-year college where you’re going to end up being in debt and not be able to get out for years. So I think that you really have to look through “where am I trying to go and what does that look like?” in order to kind of back up and say, okay, so is yet another degree that important? Is the where do I go to school” important? Do I want to go back and get my MBA important? I think it very much is looking individually at the outcomes that you’re looking at. And then what is ideal based upon others who’ve succeeded within that industry.
What would be your own personal unbreakable rule? Something that you know is a daily thing that you like, whatever it is, easy, fun. Just something you have to do to keep yourself sane.
It’s so stupid. But I think when you catch eyes with somebody, you have to smile and say hi. Whenever I’m in New York, wherever…I honestly think it doesn’t matter. I don’t care who that person is, I don’t care where they’re from.
What’s your biggest fear?
My biggest fear is honestly leaving this world and people not knowing that I was here.
Who do you yell at quietly in your head?
Oh, I yell loudly at myself. Loudly. I am my best and worst cheerleader. I yell at myself all the time.
What is your spirit animal?
My spirit animal is an elephant because they will remember everything. So I want to listen to everything and I’m going to remember it all.