Director of the Center of Career Development – Manhattan College
In your opinion, what qualities make a Moves Mentor?
“I think someone that brings, like, a consistent commitment to their life’s work. And that means, like, there’s times in our lives where things are difficult, and we’re stretched thin, but it’s such, part of the core being of who we are. We can’t not be this. We can’t not care about the young people we work with. We can’t not do the right thing, it’s just, I think that’s really what it is.”
How does mentoring benefit the mentor? Career-wise, intellectually, spiritually, socially, and in any other ways?
“Well, it’s endless, so I’m gonna try to think about the different ways. I would say first and foremost, I always tell everybody, teaching is the highest form of learning. So, that’s really what you’re doing when you’re mentoring others, like what lessons can I bring? What can I teach? It’s like, putting that out there, you really become accountable for your own teachings. Like I’m really, even with my children, it really started to click for me that you have to model. It’s all about modeling that behavior. It’s not about saying it, but doing it. So I think what I’m telling students, where I think they should go with their lives, the things I think they should do, and experience, I’m telling myself to do that. So I think what you get out of a mentor is, being a mentor is just the highest form of accountability, I think again you get tied to your personal mission and like, your life force, I’m the most powerful and wise when I’m mentoring, like I’m in the flow, right? I always tell people, “Find your flow,” it’s like I’m in my highest self, my highest wisdom. You know, we have rough times, you’re in that lizard brain, like other part of your brain, but this job I’m always in my highest self, and I find that being a mentor to other people I bring that to everybody else, it doesn’t burn me out, I want to go home and be my highest self to my family, my partner, you know? So, I think that’s what mentoring has really done for me.”
Yeah, it’s the truth. It’s the absolute truth, I think we forget sometimes that, I always, my husband and I always talk and say that, you know, “But why is it that they don’t do what they did when we were kids?” But the world is different today. They’re exposed to so much more than we were ever, ever, ever exposed to. I can’t even remember ever having a computer or access to any digital device when I was young.
“And I always laugh, but I’m like listen, the generations are always also too a direct result of parenting, that popular parenting that went on, and listen we kinda view, like I would view my parents’ parenting style that would be considered neglectful at this point, right? So maybe it was dangerous but you just developed qualities from the bad things, and I think we’re at a place where we’re more emotionally-conscious parents I think, in general, not everybody. But with that, maybe there isn’t some of that hardship. I just feel that with every– they’re good at certain things, not bad at other things. Maybe they will find their identities earlier, or you know, have more empathy for other people, and maybe they’ll make better choices. Like they’ll make better choices, they’re not rushing into marriage, they’re not rushing into things, but yeah, so I think it’s funny. I learn a lot from them, whether it’s like the popular trends– they got me out of my skinny jeans and I was proud. I was like, “I gotta stop with the skinny jeans!” or just, yeah, they teach me to constantly be more empathetic. Some of the students come in and I could say, “Oh they
seem so bitter or annoyed,” but they then could tell me how shy they are, and how they’re not used to doing interviews or whatever. So I think it’s important to me to build that empathy, a lot of what we think is happening is not what’s actually happening. It may be fear, it’s discomfort, it may come off like they’re being resistant. I’ve just learned to open my capacity for understanding other people through working and mentoring younger people.”
Should mentorship be a company requirement or more of a personal giveback? Because how do you make more people responsible if you don’t make it almost mandatory?
“Oh gosh, this is a great question. I’m personally not a big fan of forced activity, mandated activity. I think you have to create a lot of pockets of opportunity and education, so, like I’m thinking about a college. Are you creating a lot of opportunities for senior leadership and experienced people to be where the students are? You know, are you creating a situation where all the club presidents maybe go to some networking forum constantly to meet people or whatever? I’m much more a fan of making mentorship a climate and a mission focus of your organization, rather than a mandated thing. Like I think even about the curriculum at my daughter’s school that they do, I wouldn’t say it’s anti-bullying, it’s more proactive. Like respect for others, ‘if you see this, do this,’ and I’m just more of a fan of embedding what the greater mission is into it. So like, why do we mentor? Is it to, what is it, do you want to say that the goal is to learn from others, extend a helping hand, be open-minded to people who aren’t like you? I’m just much more of a fan like that. I think, again, we don’t want to say that ‘cause it’s harder, it’s more amorphous. But I’ve learned that you can operationalize complex things; that’s literally what I do everyday at my job, helping students get jobs but I’m also operationalizing the major they pick, or why they want to do this. It’s possible, but I just think we need to be open to doing things that you don’t come up with on a Friday and implement on Monday and say, “I wipe my hands clean of this.” Like I’ve come up with a mentor program, everybody’s gotta do it, I check that box. But I think it’s hard. It’s like, I recognize that it’s kind of a big picture, idealistic focus. I’ve worked with students for twenty years, I don’t see, they don’t seem to gravitate towards the mandated approach.”
But I think, if you look, if you take the approach you’re taking, and then you take that to corporations that feel, well, if we don’t have to do it, because this is time and resource that could be spent in making money instead of actually coaching or enhancing the performance of somebody ‘cause mentoring is almost sponsoring on peer-level. So there’s lots of ways that this can be viewed as, if corporations don’t have to do it, then they won’t do it. Because there are many corporations that this is their mindset you know?
“Just again, I think it goes against, we’re all, everybody’s in a scramble now more than ever to produce, so I think that’s the struggle, I always think, I think you bring up a good point about the mentorship vs. sponsorship, and to me, they’re two entirely different things. My sponsors, I’m in a state of performance for them; my mentors, I’m trying to learn from them. The sponsors, I’m like, “I have it all together! Who do you know? Help me out! I’m ready, Coach!” Whereas the mentor, you know, I remember when I was at
Barnard, we didn’t have that many alum features, alum/student things, so I remember they were like, “I want you to create a mentor program.” That’s when I remember– I created Barnard’s mentor program– and when I moved here to become a director, I just wanted to move up, I loved Barnard but I just wanted to move up. So I came here and became the director here, and I was like “You guys have a mentor program?” and I was so excited. They have a really good one, just like Barnard did. But when I started Barnard’s, I’m like, “We need a three-pronged approach based on what the alum is looking for, what the mentor’s looking for. Something about them and the performative aspect, “Hey guys, look at me! I have a lot to tell you.” And again, no judgment. Some people are like, “I just want to impart my knowledge.” Some people are like, “I just want more Barnard students at my company, or I just want a quick commitment.” So I had multiple ways for mentors to get plugged in. Like there was the full-year mentor program, that was a certain type of person. There was something I created called Careers and Coffee, where alums would just come and pretty much just talk about how wonderful they are, and how to be them, that’s what they wanted and that’s ok. You know? Everybody deserves their moment in the sun. I feel like I’m doing a photoshoot, I’m pumped, you need that, right? And we had something called Take a Barnard Student to Work Day, which is like Take Your Daughter to Work Day, and then there was just this other kind of open little bucket for people which is, hey, call me if you need me, you know? I have, I don’t really know where I stand but I feel like you have to meet mentors where they’re at and people don’t want to give back in the same way.”
In the 19th century, the central moral challenge was slavery. In the 20th century, we talked about the battle against totalism. In the 21st century, the paramount moral challenge will be the struggle to fairness and gender equality around the world. Why is gender equality even a challenge, especially the enlightened Western world, what do we believe is the root and the fierce resistance to female influence within society?
“I don’t know. This could like, make me cry even, I don’t know. Yeah, it’s heavy and I don’t know, like, I don’t know, this year? A lot of the things I’ve been teaching women about, because I worked at a women’s college and now I run a women’s program here in a bigger, broader context, it’s like a lot of this– my earlier career years, I was teaching from knowledge based on reading and understanding and generally, the understanding. Now I feel like being a mom of two daughters, again, I don’t know, something about getting into your 40s, having lots of years of experience whereas you feel like you can’t blame, “You’re not here because you don’t have enough experience,” you might not be there but you have twenty years of experience, or whatever you have at this point, you start to really look at systemic things. Systematic kinds of things. Right, so, I think the basic thing of why is people are scared of a power change. They don’t know what it looks like. The world’s structure looked a very certain way, and by women getting this influence in these moments it’s like, “Well, what’s the world gonna look like?” and someone’s gonna have to give up a little power. Things are going to change. I mean, we still know that women carry the more emotional labor, obviously, of just being in a household, but even more of the actual labor, house labor. It’s like even people that are conscious, and they want these issues to be better, it’s like on a visual level, they know
their life will drastically change. Somebody who’s like, a generic example, a husband who’s like, “I love my wife, she’s amazing, we both work hard, I shouldn’t have to do more.” But great women and great men are still having these conversations. Like, I need you to do that and it’s still painful, cause people, it would radically change what’s considered right, people don’t know what role, what it’s gonna mean for them, it’s fear. And women are extremely powerful. You know, women’s power over the course of history has been various types of power… people are very scared. Whatever lens you look at it, a woman who’s into spirituality and potions is a witch, right? What are these, everybody’s into these essential oils. I’m sitting there smelling essential oils, I’d be burned at the stake, I’d be a witch, right? It’s this fear of whether women’s sexuality is seen completely differently, abortion, it’s like, “Oh my goodness!” It’s just the fear of being like we are credible beings, you know?”
Any kind of power that’s given or any like Roe v. Wade and all of that, is women for the first time taking charge of their own bodies. And all of a sudden, people were threatened by this. Hold on. So now we allow women to make decisions? But it’s their body! Why is a man not allowed to make his decisions and a woman not allowed to make her own decision? What is the difference here?
“I think people always say, “Oh, love is a resource that never runs out,” people say that, right? Like you have multiple children, the love keeps growing, or however you want to see it. But people don’t feel that way about autonomy and rights. Well they think they’re infinite, the power and rights have to go here, and there’s only a finite amount, I’m kind of… I think it’s the wrong way to look at it. And we eclipse, we as women of course, we’ve internalized so much of this. We almost eclipse our own power out of fear, it’s like we do it to ourselves because there’s so much pressure. I think we’re actually scared of our own power in our own way because we’re taught to be. I think just, it would make the world have to radically change. Every time we get somewhere the world starts changing and then it’s pulled back because people aren’t ready.”
But when are they ever gonna be ready? At the end of the change, and whichever way, however it comes, is going to have an impact. I think it’s how women stand up to– it’s almost like when we talk about it, and only a powerful woman like yourself and I speak to you because you talk with such strength, you know at the end of the day, because women have held back for so long, many women are just prepared to put it all out there and take the consequences of whatever comes with that. And sometimes to their own detriment. But to those changemaking spaces that they’re in, they’ll do it knowing the next space will be different, right?
“Yes, so you have to unfortunately, women though, we carry burdens of like, I have to be the voice for all these other people. But instead, I think what I had to realize is like, yeah, you do. So accept it. Let’s all not beat around the bush, it’s not just about me. If I’m in a leadership position and it’s just getting so stale because no one was giving me the chance. And then I stepped out of being like, “I’m done. This is not even meaningful for me, I’m done.” I just, now, I set that whole organization back. I do believe we do, it’s unfortunate to say, we have kind of a commitment to each other to weather this
discomfort and not go anywhere. You know what I mean? Like don’t give up before the miracle happens. I’m always trying to show people that I’ll never give up.”
Was there a defining moment or defining experience in your life that led you to where you are today, and could you say what that was?
“Oh my gosh, there’s like a million. I would say my first was, I always knew that education was important. That was just understood as one of the core values as kids. Like, “Hey you can do whatever you want, but you gotta get good grades and then go do whatever you want.” So that was just ingrained in me. And I was always successful at school. When I graduated, I started a career as a publicist and it was just awful. I wasn’t good at it, I didn’t want to be? I had this feeling of the world was caving in on me, I didn’t feel like myself. I woke up everyday in a panic. And I was like, “Wow, what you choose to do with your life means a lot. And I know there’s nothing actually wrong with me, I know I’m an intelligent person, but like I’m not doing well at this job and I have no desire to get better at it. Is there something wrong?” And there wasn’t. I just didn’t do the full career explorations thing. You know people, I think, what happens as a young person, you let other people define you. And they’re like, “You’re into fashion! You’re outgoing! You should be in this kind of field.” Again, this is very surface-level observations of yourself which again, in life, that is not important. People don’t know you. I think the defining moment is when the last thing I want to do is be a 23-year old very successful-feeling person moving back into my parent’s house from New York City with my tail between my legs. Have my dad charge me rent, and just figure this out. So I just did. How can I make money in the interim while I figure this out? I used to be a ballet dancer, so I was like “Let me teach fitness,” so I did that but I knew I didn’t want to do that. I gradually got into human service which I knew I wanted to do. I just did it. And my whole life opened up after that. So I think that was a defining moment of just feeling bad, but that was unacceptable, for me. I don;t need to feel that bad, I’m not unmotivated, I’m not… but I think with young people too, based on someone’s circumstances and what they’re engaging in, their whole life can change. That’s what we do, we’re mentoring youth. Get them involved in ways that bring out their highest selves, their best qualities. And that’s what we’re doing as mentors, we’re like “Go here! Do this! Consider that!” Because we’re trying to let them access the best versions of themselves, like I think essentially we’re not necessarily teaching them what to do, but teaching them how to access their best selves and I think I was able to get, figure out, and I got on the right career track after that. I think a lot of the lessons I had to learn after that were personal. Very hard. But because I had my career that I loved, my career has been the anchor for all other good things in my life that came later. But that was a pivotal moment because it gave me really good self-esteem, to have a job that was meaningful where I could be of service. And then I think it’s again an anchor, I think it will always be the anchor in my life.”
What do you feel is the best piece of advice you’ve ever been given? “If you’re entering, as a woman, if you’re in leadership positions with the intention of people liking you, it’s really gonna hinder your ability to do your job. So I always will care, removing that stigma for myself, like it’s ok to care, but I can’t lead in that way. So lead in
the way of doing what’s right, do what aligns with your values, but don’t act in a way that’s like “this is gonna make me more likable to people, this will make people accept me.” Kind of expect it, in work, you might be polarizing at times. It’s kind of your job to be. That’s been hard, and it’s really hard for women, so I think that’s the best advice for me, and as I move forward, it becomes more clear who my people are, and that’s a good thing. It’s almost like if you stand for everything, you stand for nothing.”
It’s absolutely the truth. If the best piece of advice you’ve been given is don’t stand up just to be the person everyone loves and likes, but stand up to make a statement, you know? It is the only way to be today, especially today as well as in the role you play because people are looking up at you for fighting in their corner and their values.
“Yeah, people just want to see a model of something. And really we’re all like, “Is this ok?” A lot of the things that we’re doing, even as adults, it’s like you’re doing what a little kid does, like, “Mommy, is this ok? Can I do this?” We’re all doing that in some way. The only way we’re ok is if we see other people doing it. Like a model of that. Look at that woman doing that, see, ok. And it is burned in my brain, different images of women doing certain things, acting a certain way. And it’s made it ok for me, even if it’s just one of them. We have to do that for everybody.”
What would you tell yourself if you could go back 15 years today?
“You have the best gut instincts, just get better at following them.”
What do you most admire, and why? Could be anything.
“I just admire people who give themselves that constant grace. Not that they don’t, I just know some people who seem to be like… So, you know if something bad happens, my go-to would be like, “What did I do wrong?” and those people are like, “Well..” it’s this understood self-confidence that equals to navigating the world with just grace for themselves. I think some people have it for themselves a little bit more. And I don’t know, maybe if you talk to them and they say, “it’s been hard, I work on it.” I think a lot of us are our own personal punching bags, and it’s that whole confirmation bias, you know? If you think “Am I doing this right? Am I bad?” You’ll find examples of that in everyday life, but if you’re doing the right thing, I’m confident I’m gonna make the best decision with the resources that I have. Those are the types of self-talk that will influence your experience of the world. So I just really do admire people who seem to have that grace about their confidence, and what I’ve really tried to do is just give myself that. I wish I could have given it to myself earlier. But I’m just gonna look ahead and try to navigate life’s craziness with this sense in myself and I feel like that’s opened everything. It’s my personal mission to do that, especially for women but for all people, to just kind of harness this power that you have, a wise, centered, amazing, powerful person. Your centered self. Some people call it God, I personally, not to get religious, I personally believe God’s in all of us. A higher self. Gut instinct to say this is the right thing to do, I go with the flow, to me that’s God. So I feel like I want people to harness that part of themselves.”
